Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08

I looked at the polls, took measure of my historical experiences, and checked my gut.   Looking at the Electoral College, right now my guess is another 2000:   265 Obama, 273 McCain.

I have the following switches from 2004:

Bush to Obama:

Colorado (9)
Virginia (13)
Iowa (7)
New Mexico (5)

Kerry to McCain:

Michigan (17)
New Hampshire (4)

And the following "holds" of note:

Democratic:

Pennsylvania (21)
Wisconsin (10)
Minnesota (10)

Republican:

Ohio (20)
Nevada (5)
Florida (27)
Missouri (11)

Every state not mentioned, plus D.C., stay as with Kerry/Bush 2004.

I'm sure that there's lots of room to argue but that's the way I call it today.  

There's one anomaly that I'll call right now.  As did Gore in 2000, Obama will win the popular vote and even more handily, possibly on a 51-48 margin.   Throughout the South, a lot of 20 point electoral losses will turn into 10 point electoral losses.



Display:


Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

I disagree with you on Michigan, and on Ohio.  Conservatively, those two go blue.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:35:59 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (2.00 / 1)

I'll make a bet against Ohio going for Obama right now.  It's one of those states where Hillary would have won with no problem.

Relative to Kerry, Obama is going to have problems with working-class white voters in the Midwest.  Book it.


by InigoMontoya on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

No, I won't 'book it.'  There's just not a ton of data to back it up.  Obama is carrying roughly the same percentage of the white vote that Kerry did.


by Lawyerish on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Hillary's ardent and competent support will help secure Ohio, Michigan and New Hampshire for Obama.  Florida's still a red state and wouldn't have gone for Hillary either.


by edg1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

He hasn't had too many problems with Working Class Midwest voters so far.  His WCWV problems have been in the south and the Rust Belt... not the midwest.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois are part of the Midwest, at least to those who live there.


by InigoMontoya on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Let's wait for the post-primary polls. I think we'll see a boost.


by Falsehood on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:37:19 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Given that most EV boards have Obama winning right now, I'm not too worried.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

You have to look at the polls. they are underreporting the Black vote in Michigan. They show Obama getting only 60 percent of the vote. It won't be close. And once the Hillary supporters come to their senses and realize we can not allow the Republicans to destroy this Country any more It will be a landslide.


by Sylden37 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:38:56 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

There is currently a black/wide divide in Michigan because of the exploits of the mayor of Detroit. Despite calls for him to resign due to being caught red-handed in an affair, he is refusing. Blacks are OK with this; many whites are not. Governor Granholm is also not popular as many blame the awful Michigan economy on her, unfairly in my opinion. Barack can win Michigan but he has work to do. If McCain selects Romney as VP nominee, I'd advise Obama to look for Michigan's 17 EVs elsewhere.


by STUBALL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Romney has pluses and minuses.  While his dad was governor, the love doesn't roll down hill very far.  But I don't see McCain choosing Romney, since McCain has enough religious right problems already.

Blacks aren't okay with Mayor Kilpatrick's affair.  What they are upset with is that he is being hounded out of office for something white politicians often get a pass on.  For example, Bill Clinton and Rudy Giuliani.


by edg1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:38:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

actually... (none / 0)

that's one thing i never understood about the polling in the primary.  how was it that BO was beating HRC on some days and yet losing to JM while HRC was beating him at the same time?  v. strange.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:39:55 PM EST

Re: actually... (none / 0)

Mainly margin of error and sampling effects.  When a poll has MOE +/-4, that can lead to an 8 point distortion, and you can't accurately compare poll against poll because of sampling and timing differences.


by edg1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain will not win Michigan. (none / 0)

That state hasn't gone blue in at least four elections, and they aren't deluded enough to ascribe their economic conditions to the Democrats after eight years of GOP-cheerled outsourcing.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:39:59 PM EST

Re: McCain will not win Michigan. (2.00 / 1)

By blue, of course, I meant red.

And Florida is a classic example of a state we should stop calling a swing state, as it isn't one. It's a red state. A real swing state is Missouri.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain will not win Michigan. (none / 0)

Florida is a state where people vote something other than ideology; Clinton polled incredibly well there. There's no reason to believe it's a swing state for Obama. He should be able to win MI, OH, PA, and even VA before FL.


by mattw on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain will not win Michigan. (none / 0)

Clinton polled well there but she would not win.  McCain will draw senior, Cuban and military voters as well as Panhandle whites.


by edg1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Nope. Obama wins easily in November. Not even close. You heard it here first.


by Democrat in Chicago on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:40:24 PM EST

NH (none / 0)

I live in NH and I think we can move it to Obama. The state has gotten bluer since the last election cycle. Former Gov. Shaheen (D) is giving Sununu a real run here. I know it's early but she has consistently out polled him. So I think we have a shot.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:41:41 PM EST

Haven't you heard? (none / 0)

The  "Electoral College" is out, the "New Map" is in. Bwahahaha!


by soyousay on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:45:32 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Obama will win the popular vote and even more handily, possibly on a 51-48 margin.   Throughout the South, a lot of 20 point electoral losses will turn into 10 point electoral losses.
Are you saying that the Democratic party will be crying the blues because they will expect the popular vote to count???


by soyousay on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:48:28 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

"Are you saying that the Democratic party will be crying the blues because they will expect the popular vote to count???"

I don't think there's many people clueless enough to think the nationwide popular vote trumps the Electoral College vote.


by Collideascope on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:52:58 PM EST

My gut (none / 0)

Obama with about 294.

Flips to Obama:
Iowa
Ohio
Nevada
Colorado
New Mexico

Flips to McCain:
New Hampshire

Hottest battlegrounds:
Nevada
Virginia
Missouri
Pennsylvania
Michigan
North Carolina

Note on Ohio:
On its face it should be a battleground, but I think the GOP lable is so poisned there that it will be easier for us than it looks at this point.


by RandyMI on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:53:01 PM EST

Re: My gut (none / 0)

North Carolina is not a battleground state or anything close to it. If Barack wins NC, and I'm not saying he can't, he won't need it as the election will be a landslide of major proportions.

Ohio, despite his poor performance in the primary, should go to Obama. Bush won (I think and am too lazy to look up) 16-18% of AAs in Ohio in 2004, largely due to the presence of Ken Blackwell (remember him) on the Senate ballot and the lack of voting machines in Democratic AA precincts (Kenyon College students waited 8-10 hours in the rain to vote).

You have NV listed as a flip to Obama AND a battleground. Which is it?


by STUBALL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My gut (2.00 / 1)

Bob Barr just polled 8% in North Carolina.

You might wanna rethink your prediction, friend.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My gut (none / 0)

Sorry, 6%, but my point stands.

It's 8% in Georgia.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I mean by battlergound (none / 0)

Battlegrounds are where the most intense campaigning and media focus will be.


by RandyMI on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

RCP average for Virginia favors McCain:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/virginia.html
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:53:43 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Might want to recheck those polls. Obama is outside the margin of error in Ohio. Obama has only campaigned in Michigan ONE day, so there's a LOT of room for his organization to grow and increase his votes there (and McCain doesn't have much of a cushion). He's also got a shot at Florida for the same reason (although McCain has a much better shot at holding it).
Obama has repeatedly demonstrated that he is capable of moving the polls in his favor. Also, McCain hasn't been TOUCHED yet. If I were McCain, I'd be worried about every state where he leads by ten points are less.
Unfortunately for McCain, that means all but about seven states.
by EvilAsh on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:56:14 PM EST

Breaking development (none / 0)

The LA Times reported that Obama will probably not take federal matching funds. If he keeps up his fundraising pace, they won't have to make any decisions based on money. For example, they can go into Omaha and swipe an electoral vote from Nebraska since EV's are based on Congressional districts there.


by RandyMI on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:02:59 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Obama wins NH easily + one EV in NE for 270 as a starting point (WITHOUT MI or OH or FL).


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:12:30 PM EST

Ohio (none / 0)

Anyone who thinks Ohio will go McCain is to be ignored. The Republican brand in Ohio is in the sewer.


by highgrade on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:16:10 PM EST

I'll let those with more technical skill (none / 0)

and less ADD than I develop the EV predictions.

But I'll add my thoughts for what they are worth (not much, but statistical analysis may not be worth much more).

The GOP brand seems to have less value than I have ever seen either for the two major parties.  GOP pundits like Sean Hannity can't stop foaming at the mouth about how fundamentally screwed the GOP is long enough to properly attack this "Black Muslim Manchurian Secret Communist Ulta-Liberal Democrat".  Even when they do, the paragraph usually ends with an "and if John McCain doesn't run screaming to the Far Right we all better get used to saying 'President Elect B. Hussein Obama!'".

The attack ads they ran in MS-01 contained all of the Terrible Things we expect them to say, and that didn't work out well for them.

You can all tell me what the forecasts based on past races and demographics mean, but for my part I would suggest also looking at those numbers with 5% less than the lowest historical turnout for the GOP candidate.

Just my thoughts.

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:30:22 PM EST

My message to all (none / 0)

I would look at states the way a serious investor looks at stocks. Look at fundafentals. Ohio looks weak for Obama, but the Republican brand is toxic. Florida looks within reach, but there are really too many Republicans there.

States with big upside potential for us, electoral votes notwithstanding:

North Dakota
Arizona (McCain is unusually weak for a home state candidate).
Texas (yes I said it)
Kansas


by RandyMI on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:30:40 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Which means you predict that McCain will win by 271-267.

To be frank, I have no idea how this election is going to go. At the intellectual level, I believe that Obama is going to win with around 320 electoral votes. However, I have this feeling that McCain is going to pick a woman as VP, and that the strategy is going to work. Many older women are going to flock to McCain giving him victories in Pennslyvania, New Hampshire, Maine and even Colorado.

Now, no matter what happens, I can claim that I was right.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:49:02 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (2.00 / 1)

Right now imho it looks like O 269 and Mc 265 and i have no idea about NH but we did pick up both house seats in 2004 and as i recall one of those was not even on the radar.

But the polls from MI are starting to worry me.  I cant beleive that MI would go for McCain.  It is a big union state and very anti-free trade.  I am sorry to disagree with some above but i dont see OH or VA going blue in the GE.  To many reagan dems to over come.  I think CO and NH could be really close as well.

But i also get a sense that BO has a plan to run McCain so far in the red defending OH and VA that he will not have enough money to put into CO and NM.

david


by giusd on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

The Dems are going to crush the Republicans this fall. Many don't understand just how much the electorate has changed during the past four years. In 2004 the Dems and GOP got roughly the same numbers in party id. Today the Dems are ahead by 8 points, and there has been a similar movement from the GOP to the Indie ranks. On election day think there will be some Dem defections, but people forget that everyone who voted during this Dem primary season constitutes less than 30% of the electorate (and the hard-core supporters for each candidate, at most, are 5%).  So here is how I think it will play out.

Obama will win every state carried by Kerry in 2004.  He'll also win Virginia, Iowa, Colorado, New Mexico, and Ohio.  That'll be bring him up to 305.  And dependin upon how turnout goes, and the Bob Barr factor, he'll also have a shot at carrying Florida (50/50), North Carolina (30/70), Nevada (50/50), Missouri (50/50), and an elector in Nebraska (50/50).  And if the dam breaks, and Indies decide they're fed up with the Republicans (ie. we get more than 2/3rds), Obama will run the map (he'll get all of the above plus states which will surprise everyone, eg. Mississippi, Georgia, Alaska).

And what I'm expecting, btw, is that the dam will break.  This will be a repudiating election similar to what happened in 1980 (but this won't show up in the polls until the last two weeks, which is what happened during the Carter/Reagan race).  Voters will decide that they've lost confidence in the GOP in the most basic way.  If one believes these polls about party id, the right track/wrong course question, etc., they're 90% there now (which is why the Dems are winning in places like Mississippi).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:59:12 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

There will be more than some Democratic defections if HRC is not on the ticket.


by handsomegent on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Biggest shocker of the night:  when Connecticut goes for McCain.


by handsomegent on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:13:26 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Definitely possible.


by Same As It Ever Was on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My Guess (none / 0)

Bush to Obama:

CO, NM, IA, MO, IN, OH, VA, NV

Kerry to McCain:

NH

And a many more performances like McCain's speech on Tuesday and it could be an epic landslide.


by Same As It Ever Was on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:32:00 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

From Electoral-vote.com:

Photobucket

We are going into this really strong.  It is our job to make sure that the map only gets better.  While the Obama people can make the case for him, Clintonistas such as myself, Clintonistas who aren't completely on board with him, can make the case against .  That is the dream ticket.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM EST

Re: Electoral College Guess, 6/5/08 (none / 0)

Hi folks,

Again, you're all far deeper in this than I.  Let me offer up this analysis and ask how you think it works into your analysis.

McCain Needs `Vision' to Beat Historic Odds Favoring Obama in '08

Despite polls showing him doing surprisingly well against Obama, historical patterns show he's in perilous territory.

Professor Alan Abramowitz of Emory University has developed an "electoral barometer" based on just three variables for predicting election outcomes, and it suggests that McCain is all but certainly set to lose this year.

In an article last week on University of Virginia professor Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball Web site, Abramowitz declared that "it appears very likely that the Republican party is dealing with the dreaded `triple whammy' in 2008: an unpopular president, a weak economy and a second-term election."

Abramowitz has tracked the effect of those variables on the last 15 presidential elections and found that they accurately predicted the popular vote outcome in 14 and came close in the 15th.

The formula adds the incumbent president's net approval rating (approval minus disapproval), the second-quarter election-year GDP growth rate multiplied by five (emphasizing the importance of the economy) and then (factoring in time-for-a-change sentiment) subtracts 25 points if the in-party is finishing a second term.

Bush's net approval now stands at minus 40. The first-quarter growth rate was 0.6 percent and Bush is finishing eight years, meaning that this year's electoral barometer currently stands at minus 62.

If such a number holds, it "would predict a decisive defeat for the Republican presidential candidate," Abramowitz wrote. "The only election since World War II with a score in this range was 1980," when "Jimmy Carter suffered the worst defeat for an incumbent president since Herbert Hoover in 1932."

The second worst occurred in 1952, when Democrat Adlai Stevenson tried to succeed Harry S. Truman with a minus 50 score and lost the popular vote by 11 points to Dwight D. Eisenhower.

The Abramowitz barometer is a short-cut variation on American University professor Allan Lichtman's famed "13 Keys to the Presidency," which adds such factors as wars, candidate charisma, scandal and the incumbent party's performance in off-year elections to the economy and incumbency.

When Lichtman published the latest edition of his book early this year, he flatly predicted that "the Democratic candidate will capture the White House in 2008 no matter the choice of a nominee."

Democrats have advantages Lichtman couldn't anticipate, such as a charismatic nominee, now giving them eight of the 13 "keys" -- plenty enough to win.

Historical models are invented to be broken, of course. But they give an indication of the odds McCain has to overcome.

As his and Obama's speeches Tuesday night showed, McCain is not overcoming them.


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:56:28 PM EST

And adding to all of that, Gloria is now an Obaman (none / 0)

Gloria Steinem Supporting Obama

...which may go a long way to healing the gender gap.  If there is anyone white Democratic women over 50 identify with more than Sen. Clinton, it's Gloria.

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What am I missing (none / 0)

I can't find an electoral map that has McCain ahead. All the prediction markets are pretty solid. O is trending upwards in the 538 map.

Granted, it's pretty far out to assign much weight to the polls, but anyone know what's sourcing the diarist's conclusion?


by Neef on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:56:41 PM EST

Re: What am I missing (none / 0)

Obama's numbers have been all over the place.   He's currently riding a "high" by virtue of clinching the nomination.

I look at state polls and demographic data and my more than three decades of watching campaigns evolve.   My academic background (undergrad) was elections and survey research (polling).  I've worked on two presidential campaigns in a paid capacity.

Please forgive me, but a lot of Obama folks seem to be living "in a bubble" where it's inconceivable that anyone could resist the wonderfulness that is Obama.


by InigoMontoya on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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